Internet Responses

The prize is being offered by Harrison G. Pope, Jr. and James I. Hudson, directors at the Biological Psychiatry Laboratory at McLean Hospital in Belmont, Mass. Their theory is that repressed repressed memory (the notion that someone who underwent a trauma might suffer temporary amnesia) is a romantic notion rather than a scientifically valid phenomenon. If they’re wrong, they reason,

somewhere, in the thousands of years prior to 1800, would have witnessed it and portrayed it in a non-fictional work or in a fictional character.

You have to be the first one to report a qualifying account to win the money.

2. La amnesia por este trauma tiene que haber durado meses o años después del evento. Donde:

3. La amnesia no se puede deber a factores biológicos como la infancia, heridas a la cabeza, intoxicación, etc.

4. Las personas que sufrieron la amnesia tiene que haber recuperado la memoria después de un tiempo

5. La amnesia tiene que ser selectiva

‘Repressed Memory’ Challenge [butterfliesandwheels.com]

A los alumnos del Centro Eleia que estén estudiando la Licenciatura en Psicología o la Maestría en Psicoterapia Psicoanalítica les conviene entrar a este concurso ya que los autores dicen específicamente que sus investigaciones sugieren que las memorias reprimidas no son un concepto válido científicamente.

Voltaire’s short story “Memory’s Adventure” also comes close: In it, the goddess of Memory strikes with amnesia all those who believe in the philosophical notion of innate ideas. Then they go about their daily lives — albeit naked, incoherent, incontinent, and immoral. Not, in other words, terribly different from most doctors of the Sorbonne in that era, but enough to make a difference.

Our research suggests that the concept of “repressed memory” or “dissociative amnesia” might be simply a romantic notion dating from the 1800s, rather than a scientifically valid phenomenon. To test this hypothesis, we are offering a reward of $1000 to the first person who can find a description of “repressed memory” in any written work, either nonfiction or fiction (novels, poems, dramas, epics, the Bible, essays, medical treatises, or any other sources), in English or in any work that has been translated into English, prior to 1800. We would argue that if “repressed memory” were a genuine natural phenomenon that has always affected people, then someone, somewhere, in the thousands of years prior to 1800, would have witnessed it and portrayed it in a non-fictional work or in a fictional character.

Jason suggests looking in the writings of the Marquis de Sade and the records of witchraft trials. Shakespeare might also be a fruitful source to mine. I seem to remember Henry V repressing his memories of a riotous youth with Falstaff, but don’t trust me on this as I’ve largely repressed my memories of reading Henry IV, and I could be remembering Kenneth Branagh’s interpretation of Henry V rather than the play itself.

A larger question that Cliopatria’s readers might be able to address is a question that is begged by this contest: can we really mine history for evidence of clinical conditions that have only been identified in modern times? It’s a question that’s also been raised by recent debates on Joshua Wolf Shenk’s contention that Lincoln was clinically depressed. The other unspoken assumption, it seems to me, of this contest is that a historical description of a physiological or psychological condition is enough to prove that it is a “natural phenomenon.” Not sure that I’m sure about that.

• Other sources (#84234)by Manan Ahmed on March 23, 2006 at 2:43 PMOne could certainly start here: Dreams, Illusion, and Other Realities (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226618552/
  sr=8-2/qid=1143142893/ ref=pd_bbs_2/
  102-2056940-7723362?%5Fencoding=UTF8) by Wendy Doniger. Also, her most recent Bedtrick has a wonderful tale of repressed memory.
• Re: Other sources (#84249)By Ralph E. Luker on March 23, 2006 at 5:12 PMCaleb, I agree with Jason and you that this is a fascinating question — so much so that I sent it out as a query to three of the Cliopatricians who know more about pre-1800 sources than some of the rest of us — and got no takers. There is an interesting discussion of it here (http://answers.google.com/answers/ threadview?id=443814).
• Re: Other sources (#84251)By Ralph E. Luker on March 23, 2006 at 5:17 PMSorry. It’s here (http://answers.google.com/answers/ threadview?id=443814).
• Re: Other sources (#84255)by Caleb McDaniel on March 23, 2006 at 5:58 PMThanks for those suggestions. When I read the discussion thread at Google Answers, it clarified some of my reservations about the question itself. Pope seems to be placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that you only begin to find references to “repressed memory” in nineteenth-century literature like the novels of Kipling or the poetry of Dickinson. But couldn’t this simply be tracking a change in the content and concerns of literature, rather than marking the discovery or invention of a scientific phenomenon? Could this have to do with literature becoming more realistic and introspective in the nineteenth century, or with views of the human body and mind becoming more mechanistic and susceptible to detailed investigation?

  I guess I’m playing the devil’s advocate to put pressure on the premise that if “repressed memory” were a real phenomenon, then surely there would be some mention of it in the world’s literature. That doesn’t follow necessarily. I agree, however, that the counterfactual does have some intuitive force. There definitely seem to be times in pre-1800 historical literature when an author or authors could have used a concept like “repressed memory” and did not. At the beginning of the Aeneid, for instance, when Father Aeneas recalls witnessing the traumatic fall of Troy (a “sorrow too deep to tell”) he tells his story with a heavy heart, “however I may shudder at the memory / and shrink again in grief.” He shudders at the memory, but he clearly has the memory.

  Nonetheless, does this fact tell us anything about whether Virgil and his contemporaries had an understanding of “repressed memory,” or simply that they lacked the conceptual apparatus to articulate such an understanding, or simply that the dictates of literary form were different. After all, Father Aeneas had to remember the fall of Troy or else Virgil would have been robbed of the literary conceit he needed to retell the fall himself.

• Re: Other sources (#84284)by Ralph E. Luker on March 24, 2006 at 12:29 AMI think that your “devil’s advocate” interrogation of the question is well justified. But it also seems to me that if “repressed memory” is a human phenomenon, rather than just a modern one, we should look to find examples of it, not only in western literature and history, but in near eastern, south Asian, and far eastern history and literature, as well.
• Re: Other sources (#84664)by Philip Tuley on March 26, 2006 at 1:12 AMWith all due respect, the problem lies not only in finding examples of the issue, but in finding diagnosticians who were even looking for such a phenomenon.

  To turn the logic a tiny bit, we have plenty of literature to suggest that demon possession is real, if we choose to accept it. By the same logic that you are attempting to use, we can find plenty of descriptions throughout virtually every civilization over virtually all written history. Yet I wouldn’t exactly bet on the APA deciding that demon possession was a verifiable illness.

  More intriguing is the work done during WWI and WWII around the issue of “shell-shock” and traumatic amnesia, over a period of time. It was found that, on occasion, a soldier would not remember anything from a particular incident, only to retrieve it many months and even years afterwards, and to have that memory retrieved with enough accuracy as to be verifiable.

  The problem with the issue of repressed memory and DID is that it has become a politicized discussion. Repression, dissociation, and DID can be approximated by using hypnosis, but that assumes that an external influence is the only way that they are created. It is much like saying that nuclear reactions take place only by the action of a guided hand, since that’s how one was started in a lab, while ignoring the sun burning outside a window.

• Tirant Lo Blanco– 15th Cent. Spain (#84297)by Andrew D. Todd on March 24, 2006 at 6:19 AMI don’t know that the following example is exactly repressed memory, but it is an interesting psychological state. I found this in Joanot Martorell’s _Tirant Lo Blanco_ (c. 1460). I should state that I am relying on a translation (David H. Rosenthal, 1984, ch. 189-202), as I do not have the Spanish, let alone the Catalan. Martorell had been to England, circa 1438. This apparently exposed him to Arthurian and Anglo-Norman literary material, which he later synthesized with the historical figure of the early fourteenth-century renegade Templar and mercenary captain Roger Flor (Rutiger Von Blum). At any rate, the relevant episode is as follows:

  Queen Morgan Le Fay arrives at the Greek court, searching for her brother, King Arthur. The Greek Emperor reveals to Morgan Le Fay that he has a captive, whose name he is unable to learn, but whose sword is named Excalibur, and who is attended by a knight named Brennis Saunce Pite. The queen asks to be taken to him, and the captive, whom she recognizes as King Arthur, is discovered inside a silver cage, sitting with his sword on his knees, staring dully down at it. The queen speaks to him, but he does not answer. The knight, however, recognizes her, and comes to kiss her hand. King Arthur suddenly starts delivering a lecture on the theory of chivalry, and answers questions from the audience. At length the Emperor takes King Arthur’s sword away, and he falls silent. King Arthur then neither sees or recognizes anyone. Morgan Le Fay takes a ruby from her finger, and passes it in front of his eyes, whereupon he suddenly awakens, in a normal mental state, and goes off to dinner with the company. He then returns with his sister to her ship, and they sail away together.

  I think the evidence would support that, even allowing for translator bias, Martorell had a working knowledge of hypnosis.

• Here is a summary of the above mentioned work:Shortly after a tournament, Tirant and the court are celebrating in
  the palace of the emperor of Greece. During the celebration, four
  “damsels of indescribable beauty” enter the hall and announce that
  they have traveled great distances in search of King Arthur of
  England, who has been missing for four long years. The women
  explain that waiting at their ship is Morgan le Fay, King Arthur’s
  sister, who is despondent with grief over her brother’s whereabouts.
  The emperor, upon learning that the queen is so close, gathers his
  knights and travels to the ship where he meet with the grieving
  Morgan le Fay. He explains to her that he had a “great lord” under
  his power whose name was not known; however, this lord carried a “wondrous
  sword” called “Excalibur” and was attended by a knight named Breunis
  Saunce Pite.

  Morgan le Fay insists upon seeing this mysterious knight and upon
  returning to the palace, they find King Arthur. When Queen Morgan
  addresses the King, he remains silent, staring at Excalibur sitting
  across his knees. After some silence, Arthur begins to speak. At
  first, his words are simply thoughts spoken aloud about the loss of
  virtue and honor from the world. Then, Arthur is prompted to answer
  several questions on subjects such as nature’s gifts, a king’s sworn
  duties, the origins of honor, what a knight requires, how wisdom is
  attained, fortune’s gifts, and the virtues of nobility, etc. After
  answering many questions, the emperor removes Excalibur from Arthur’s
  knees.

  “At first, King Arthur neither saw nor recognized anyone, but then
  his sister took a ruby off her finger and passed it before his eyes.
  The king suddenly regained his senses, rose from his seat, and
  embraced her with great love, while the gentle lady said: ‘Brother,
  thank the emperor and his wife and daughter.’”

  Immediately afterward, the entire court, Morgan le Fay, King Arthur,
  and the “damsels of indescribable beauty” celebrate with feast and
  dancing.

  As will be seen from the above summary, there is no evidence of an individual who experienced a specific traumatic event and was then unable to remember that event.

• Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 17:37:44In reply to $1000 pre-1800 repressed memory prize, posted by pseudoname on April 5, 2006, at 13:36:06well well whaddya know…

  surely there has to be a case of ‘demonic posession’ meeting criteria somewhere

  (remember the bible peoples… remember the bible…)

• Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 17:46:20In reply to Re: $1000 pre-1800 repressed memory prize, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 17:37:44oh.

  not for a chunk of time.

  and not for non-traumatic.

  heh heh.

• Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 23:30:59In reply to Re: $1000 pre-1800 repressed memory prize, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 17:46:20though there is a sense in which many things can’t be reported until people ‘believe in’ them.

  i mean…

  if you go back to greek culture i don’t think you find the notion of an individuals will (people don’t do things becaues they want to they do things they do things because the gods make it happen).

  so… does that mean the greeks didn’t have will?

  is the will a construct that only comes into existence once we believe in it?

  how about the notion of unconscious beliefs?

  before freud are there any cases of unconscious beliefs?

  i don’t think the lack of evidence means the phenomenon didn’t occur…

  and just because the phenomenon might not have occured (which i dont’ think it it legitimate to infer)

  but just becaues the phenomenon might not have occured

  doesn’t mean the notion of repressed memory is any more illegitimate than the notion of the will or the notion of unconscious belief.

• Posted by Racer on April 6, 2006, at 1:40:34In reply to Re: $1000 pre-1800 repressed memory prize » special_k, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 23:30:59What you say is true, up to a point, but I think this is a very interesting line of research. Literature is one of the purist forms of contemporary social history, and concepts such as repressed memory would likely have shown up in literature if it was occurring. The fact that they haven’t found evidence of repressed memory or selective amnesia in literature prior to 1800 might be quite quite telling.

  On the other hand, cultural changes will also be likely to create changes in the expression of psychopathology. Think about the changes in Anorexia Nervosa of the centuries (and even millenia). It is possible that repressed memories were present in earlier times, but RECOVERED memories were not. Or that those who recovered memories of repressed past trauma were then treated for mental illness — which was not quite such a pleasant process as it can be for us, these days.

  Very likely, because prior to 1800 most people were preoccupied by the struggle to meet their more basic needs, no one much cared whether or not they remembered past trauma. They were often faced with ongoing trauma, and the lives of the great majority of people at that time were largely spent working. Literacy was still rare enough that most people would not have been able to record their experiences, and those who were literate might have been rather sheltered from such experiences. Or not.

  Literature of the period prior to about 1750 was also very, very strongly structured according to traditions. The English Novel really only appeared about then. (Actually, the first published piece of literature in English which we might recognize as a novel was published in 1688, but it’s more a play with very few stage directions.) Earlier works were more picaresque narrative than anything we find nowadays. There’s no room in that tradition for repressed or recovered memories, really. Nor is it a subject that would come up in most lyics or dramas…

  Although, at the same time I say that, I also think about some dramatic possibilities of repressed memories, so I’m probably wrong about that…

  Anyway, although you’re right — absence of evidence and all that — I still think there’s a good chance that repressed memories are a fairly recent development. Whether that’s because they only developed with the rise of the Industrial world, or because they are a Romantic construct I can’t say. But I find the question very interesting…

• Posted by pegasus on April 6, 2006, at 8:44:46In reply to Absence of evidence/evidence of absence » special_k, posted by Racer on April 6, 2006, at 1:40:34Hey, Racer, I think you should send your post to the people doing that research. Their write up sounds like they haven’t really considered all of the complexity that you point out. And your comments are very well articulated.

  What do you say? If you don’t want to identify yourself, you could send it anonymously.

  Just a thought.

  Peg

• Posted by Tabitha on April 6, 2006, at 10:57:37In reply to Re: Absence of evidence/evidence of absence, posted by pegasus on April 6, 2006, at 8:44:46Another thought– isn’t writing about the interior experience (feelings, memories) a fairly modern invention? From what little I remember of reading moldy old classics in school, I don’t recall much if any attention to characters’ inner experience.
• Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:30:51In reply to Absence of evidence/evidence of absence » special_k, posted by Racer on April 6, 2006, at 1:40:34>What you say is true, up to a point, but I think this is a very interesting line of research. Literature is one of the purist forms of contemporary social history, and concepts such as repressed memory would likely have shown up in literature if it was occurring. The fact that they haven’t found evidence of repressed memory or selective amnesia in literature prior to 1800 might be quite quite telling.

  the ‘concepts’ can’t show up until they have been legitimated…

  can you find a case of a repressed belief before the 1800’s (the time of freud?)

  can you?

  does that mean there weren’t any such things as repressed beliefs before time of freud…

  or does it mean that such things were alternatively described / not judged worthy of reporting on

  ?

  how is this different?

• Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:31:59In reply to Re: Absence of evidence/evidence of absence, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:30:51can you find cases of H2O being reported on prior to the 1800’s?

  does that mean there wasn’t any H2O prior to the 1800’s?

  how is this different?

• Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:32:27In reply to Re: Absence of evidence/evidence of absence, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:31:59how ’bout quantum indeterminacies?
• Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:33:56In reply to Re: Absence of evidence/evidence of absence, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:32:27aka:

  metaphysics (what in fact there is)
  is a seperate topic from
  epistemology (what if anything we can know about it)

  lack of epistemological evidence doesn’t have implications for metaphysics one way or the other…

  maybe we are just stupid…

• Posted by Racer on April 6, 2006, at 12:30:40In reply to Re: Absence of evidence/evidence of absence, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:30:51>

  >

  >

  >can you find a case of a repressed belief before the 1800’s (the time of freud?)

  >

  >

  >does that mean there weren’t any such things as repressed beliefs before time of freud…

  >

  Just a note: Freud was much later than these guys were talking about, early 20th century.

  As far as whether or not repressed beliefs or repressed memories existed prior to the time they first showed up in literature, I wouldn’t dare venture an opinion on that here. I was really only saying that it’s an interesting question, and that there are a lot of variables which I believe might be involved.

• Posted by pseudoname on April 6, 2006, at 17:28:30In reply to Re: Absence of evidence/evidence of absence, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:33:56Hey, _k.

  (Rhymes)

  >can you find a case of a repressed belief before the 1800’s (the time of freud?)

  FREUD found cases of repression before his own time. He found them wherever he looked. He found them in Hamlet, who in addition to being pre-1800 probably didn’t even exist. http://arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/ bierman/Elsinore/Freud/ freudRepression.html

  >can you find cases of H2O being reported on prior to the 1800’s?

  >how ’bout quantum indeterminacies?

  The McLean contest seeks reports of something bygone people could certainly see and describe perfectly well, even if they lacked a Freudian explanation for it. Ancient people talked about both remembering and forgetting; there are dozens of such references in the Bible, for example. An instance of such an unusual and provocative pattern of forgetting and remembering as the McLean researchers seek would be well within the capacity of ancient, medieval, renaissance, and enlightment writers to observe, distinguish as unusual, and report.

  The absence of such reports would be noteworthy in this situation and could be *part* of a persuasive argument against recovered memory’s metaphysical claims. Why don’t I believe in UFOs? Absence of evidence for them where evidence can reasonably be expected is certainly part of my thinking.

  I think Racer’s suggestion about possible limitations in creating these reports back then is really interesting. But even if they were a minority, there were still plenty of people who had as much emotional free time as we do, and they were about the only folks *ever* written up in the literature back then: rich & powerful princes (like Hamlet and Oedipus), leaders, courtesans, and their families. I don’t know how any balladeer or poet or historian or lyricist or storyteller could resist the saucy material and plot twists that an instance of recovered memory could provide, if they had ever heard of one.

• Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 20:36:01In reply to Freud was 1900s… >> special_k, posted by Racer on April 6, 2006, at 12:30:40>Just a note: Freud was much later than these guys were talking about, early 20th century.

  yeah, okay. though i think the notion of those concepts came up a bit before… he just managed to get ‘em through to ‘pop culture’

  >As far as whether or not repressed beliefs or repressed memories existed prior to the time they first showed up in literature, I wouldn’t dare venture an opinion on that here. I was really only saying that it’s an interesting question, and that there are a lot of variables which I believe might be involved.

  sure. and i was interested to read what you had to say. (sorry if i sounded like i was disagreeing… i was just worried about the ’significance’ of not managing to find anything)

• Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 20:44:29In reply to Re: old memory » special_k, posted by pseudoname on April 6, 2006, at 17:28:30>FREUD found cases of repression before his own time. He found them wherever he looked.

  tee hee.

  >The McLean contest seeks reports of something bygone people could certainly see and describe perfectly well, even if they lacked a Freudian explanation for it. Ancient people talked about both remembering and forgetting; there are dozens of such references in the Bible, for example. An instance of such an unusual and provocative pattern of forgetting and remembering as the McLean researchers seek would be well within the capacity of ancient, medieval, renaissance, and enlightment writers to observe, distinguish as unusual, and report.

  but you need to believe people before you would report it. how many cases of csa are reported prior to 1800? if the traumatic memories that are repressed are typically reports of csa then it would make sense that if society didn’t acknowledge csa then even if someone did forget and then remember others (and perhaps even they themselves) would write it off as rubbish.

  also… i don’t think we tend to go around talking about traumatic memories with people we meet on the streets… not until the advent of therapy did people have a place where they would be listened to and taken seriously…

  i just mean to say that there are a variety of reasons why there might not be records…

  The absence of such reports would be noteworthy in this situation and could be *part* of a persuasive argument against recovered memory’s metaphysical claims. Why don’t I believe in UFOs? Absence of evidence for them where evidence can reasonably be expected is certainly part of my thinking.

  though i think the idea about ufo’s is why posit a new entity when old entities will do the trick? with repressed memories… well… i think some people try and make a repressed memory / dissociated memory distinction though best i can figure dissociated memories would seem to fulfill their criteria as much as repressed memories would.

  they are taking denial… to be the measure of repression. that means somebody needs to ask them about the trauma and they need to say ‘no no no didn’t happen to me’ a fair bit… and then later to change their mind and say ‘oh yeah i remember’. who would ask them? (before therapists)? repression was observed… dissociation was observed… and as for the rest… i don’t think csa was talked about… and other traumas… maybe more focus on moving on…

• Posted by pseudoname on April 6, 2006, at 22:50:05In reply to Re: old memory » pseudoname, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 20:44:29[**CONTENT WARNING: possible triggers**]

  >how many cases of csa are reported prior to 1800?

  Oh, good point! Very interesting. Well— except for those that were culturally sanctioned, like with catamites and child brides.

  We do get stories of adult rape and both adult and child murder, so presumably when instances of CSA were known, they were deliberately never mentioned. Very interesting.

  Interesting also that (I’m pretty sure) there’s nothing in the Hebrew Scriptures about “lying with children”. They covered same-sex partners, so why not that? Surely *it* would really be “an abomination unto the Lord.”

  Surely bygone-era writers would’ve known about it, or would’ve imagined it. And it could’ve juiced up their stories. We have lots of antique stories of children being beaten. Why not sexually abused? They reported versions of bestiality, after all.

  The absence of CSA is interesting… Someone must’ve written papers about this.

  Of course, as you say, there are other traumas that are considered triggers of repressed memory, many of which are events of the sort clearly reported in ancient literature. Murder, fires, adult rape, pillaging, kidnapping, plague, wholesale slaughter of towns, etc. If these events had triggered repressed memory, writing about their recovery would not have violated any taboos, as it might’ve with CSA memories.

  It just doesn’t seem like Shakespeare or any of his rivals or those opera guys could’ve kept themselves from using this device in the plot of at least one play if they had ever heard of it or had an inkling that it could happen. When you consider all the oracles and magic potions and ghosts and dei ex machinis that they did resort to…

  Not all the repression currently reported is from early (say, pre-10) childhood, is it? I don’t really know.

  >they are taking denial… to be the measure of repression. that means somebody needs to ask them about the trauma and they need to say ‘no no no didn’t happen to me’ a fair bit… and then later to change their mind and say ‘oh yeah i remember’.

  From the posting, I think the McLean folk would accept someone simply self-reporting that they did not remember it earlier but do remember it now. They just ask for someone who’s

  >been unable to access the memory

  not someone whose previous denial was on record.

• Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 23:47:56In reply to Re: ancient CSA » special_k, posted by pseudoname on April 6, 2006, at 22:50:05>>how many cases of csa are reported prior to 1800?

  >Oh, good point! Very interesting. Well— except for those that were culturally sanctioned, like with catamites and child brides.

  ah… so… wasn’t there any childhood sexual abuse (thinking more particularly of incest here) or…

  was it something that society didn’t look into / acknowledge / talk about…

  ?

  i dont’ think it is legitimate to infer from the lack of reports that it didnt’ happen.

  and ditto with the case of repressed memory, i guess.

  re fiction… wouldn’t incest have been a juicy topic for shakespeare etc too????? maybe it just wasnt’ the done thing. and again… re memory of traumatic experiences… maybe a cultural thing of ‘moving along now’ did come into play. and so therapists (tell us your secrets) and delving into the past… well maybe that does get people thinking on it (and hence reporting it) whereas before… maybe the memories were never ‘recovered’ because the ‘recovered memory’ was thought (by the subject) to be fantasy… or maybe they just didn’t want to talk about it (i mean why go through the pain unless there is a theory that going through the pain helps the pain long term?)

  >We do get stories of adult rape and both adult and child murder, so presumably when instances of CSA were known, they were deliberately never mentioned. Very interesting.

  >The absence of CSA is interesting… Someone must’ve written papers about this.

  i’ve head ian hacking’s “multiple personality and the sciences of memory” and he talks about how definitions of ‘abuse’ have changed over time (now lots more acts are considered ‘abuse’ that would not be considered ‘abuse’ in the past. if you change the concept so more acts fall under it then the prevalence of abuse will go up…)

  >Of course, as you say, there are other traumas that are considered triggers of repressed memory, many of which are events of the sort clearly reported in ancient literature. Murder, fires, adult rape, pillaging, kidnapping, plague, wholesale slaughter of towns, etc. If these events had triggered repressed memory, writing about their recovery would not have violated any taboos, as it might’ve with CSA memories.

  yes. that seems right. i would say absence of therapists and absence of belief in the utility of remembering could come into play quite significantly.

  but i don’t tink failure to find repressed memories
  i don’t think failure to find csa
  means those things didn’t occur.
  just that they weren’t talked about…

  hard to know… it is interesting topic… there is huge lit…

  >Not all the repression currently reported is from early (say, pre-10) childhood, is it? I don’t really know.

  no. some from older. some from younger. lots of empirical support for notion that recovered memories before age 3 (i think) is rather dodgey…

  >From the posting, I think the McLean folk would accept someone simply self-reporting that they did not remember it earlier but do remember it now. They just ask for someone who’s

  >>been unable to access the memory

  >not someone whose previous denial was on record.

  how do they measure ‘inability to access the memory’?

  that is a very real problem…

  if i do not remember…

  is it because i cannot remember…

  or because i choose not to remember…

  and do i remember but deny it…

  or not remember which is why i deny it…

  and how do you decide?

  (that is a very real problem)

• Posted by pseudoname on April 7, 2006, at 14:11:01In reply to Re: ****trigger CSA / repressed memory****, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 23:47:56[**CONTENT WARNING: Incest, Child abuse **]

  >re fiction… wouldn’t incest have been a juicy topic for shakespeare etc too?????

  Yeah! And Shakespeare used it in ‘Pericles’, where the king and his marriage-age daughter are having sexual relations. (“Bad child! Worse father!”) Eventually the gods send fire from heaven to burn up both of them for what they were doing, and the outraged populace storms the palace.

  >>The absence of CSA is interesting… Someone must’ve written papers about this.

  >

  >i’ve read ian hacking’s “multiple personality and the sciences of memory” and he talks about how definitions of ‘abuse’ have changed over time [...]

  I’ve found a couple papers that appear to document ancient & medieval reports of CSA, but they’re in proprietary journals. I’m really interested in this now, so I may have to look them up in 2 weeks when I visit my dentist. (She’s in a big university town.)

  Your point about changing definitions is important. I think the plethora of reports in sources like Catullus (I was a Latin major for a while…) of catamites –boys routinely sodomized by older men– is significant. The dominant literate culture didn’t call it abuse, for the most part, but it was certainly reported. And there are catamite accusations in medieval times, too, when it was regarded as sinful: more an offense against God than against the child.

  So we really do have historic accounts of CSA, once we make cultural adjustments to recognize it. Nevertheless, you point out that incestuous CSA was apparently not reported, at least with young children. (There are reports of incest with slightly older girls, like in ‘Pericles’.) Perhaps even if an ancient woman recovered memories of her incestuous CSA, it wouldn’t get reported any better than if it had been discovered while it was going on.

  It seems to be the case that incestuous CSA is the most common recovered-memory accusation. Perhaps the ancient silence about early-childhood incest would rule out the most common modern type of recovered memory from being historically reported, even if it occurred. I think that is a point worth making, but reports of other instances of recovered memory could still be expected.

  >maybe the memories were never ‘recovered’ because the ‘recovered memory’ was thought (by the subject) to be fantasy

  That’s an interesting idea! I like it. But people back then assumed that gods (and God) gave them authentic visions, so it seems less likely to me that they would dismiss much as “fantasy”. It was a credulous era.

  >maybe they just didn’t want to talk about it (i mean why go through the pain unless there is a theory that going through the pain helps the pain long term?)

  That, too, is an interesting point. I wonder if there was any assumption of “talking through it” in the Victorian literature where recovered memory does occur? I’ve never read ‘Captains Courageous’ (1896), the story Pope/Hudson cite in which the kid recovers the memory of his family drowning. Perhaps there was some assumption in it of talking through the pain.

  >i would say absence of therapists and absence of belief in the utility of remembering could come into play quite significantly.

  I think the McLean guys would agree. They would just suggest that the “belief in the utility of remembering” may *cause* the memories, not simply make them seem more important.

  >how do they measure ‘inability to access the memory’?

  >that is a very real problem…

  It doesn’t seem like a problem for this contest. It really sounds like any self-report by someone who claims to have recovered a traumatic memory they previously didn’t know about would suffice. They accept, for example, the ones in Victorian literature.

  I may have to read ‘Captains Courageous’ now.

  Always nice to chat with you, _k.

• Posted by gardenergirl on April 7, 2006, at 16:09:03In reply to historic CSA *trigger* » special_k, posted by pseudoname on April 7, 2006, at 14:11:01I seem to recall this began in earnest as a tool for understanding the psyche around

  (Okay, I’m looking at my old textbook right now)

  St. Augustine used introspection in developing his “Confessions”, although I don’t believe he labelled it as such. This was around the late 2nd century, into early 3rd century.

  Montaigne (1533-1592) is known for his introspective “Essays”, in which he tried to understand life and hiw world from a more pragmatic, human point of view versus using the religious beliefs of the day or metaphysical beliefs.

  And probably the most well-known in psychology for using introspection as a research device are Wundt and and more formally, Titchener in the late 17th century into the 18th century.

  Just to give some time frames for the development of the use of introspection…Thanks to “A History of Psychology: Ideas and Context” by Viney and King.

  Eek, and now I may have to go take cover in the basement.

  Gg

• Posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 19:38:03In reply to historic CSA *trigger* » special_k, posted by pseudoname on April 7, 2006, at 14:11:01>Yeah! And Shakespeare used it in ‘Pericles’, where the king and his marriage-age daughter are having sexual relations. (“Bad child! Worse father!”) Eventually the gods send fire from heaven to burn up both of them for what they were doing, and the outraged populace storms the palace.

  hmm. there is some religious figure… mebee has the status of a god… his bride was 11 or 12 i think. but that wasn’t considered abuse. i guess it was the done thing back whenever. but interesting that in shakespeare it was frowned upon… mind you the former wasn’t incest (thats why i guess i got to thinking about incest in particular - and kids in particular too). they used to think that incest was a universally frowned upon thing. but then they found a small tribe that didn’t have a problem with it. but apparantly the tribe was so small that if they had have had a problem with it the tribe would have died out long ago (they were isolated too). i wonder how many tribes died out BECAUSE of norms around incest though…

  >Your point about changing definitions is important.

  (Hacking’s point…)

  >I think the plethora of reports in sources like Catullus (I was a Latin major for a while…) of catamites –boys routinely sodomized by older men– is significant. The dominant literate culture didn’t call it abuse, for the most part, but it was certainly reported. And there are catamite accusations in medieval times, too, when it was regarded as sinful: more an offense against God than against the child.

  ah. ancient greeks used to sleep with the young men too. i don’t know how young ‘young’ was. but then i think the average lifespan back in ancient greece was around 45 or something like that. maybe even less. and i guess the marrying age (for girls) would be around sexual maturity (i’m thinking 13 or so ’cause it used to take a bit longer for girls than it does now). so i don’t know how old the boys were. but that wasn’t considered abusive back then…

  >So we really do have historic accounts of CSA, once we make cultural adjustments to recognize it.

  meebe. if the same act happened in our culture we would classify it as abusive. and the person would feel traumatised from being abused no doubt. back then… well hacking talks a bit about how it might be being culturally insensitive to consider those acts abusive in retrospect. when they happened they were embraced as part of a culture. if it is accepted by culture / society (as it was) then maybe the people don’t feel traumatised the way they tend to now. talking about consent i guess. not against someones will (which has gotta be traumatic). i dunno…

  >Nevertheless, you point out that incestuous CSA was apparently not reported, at least with young children.

  i actually have no idea. i asked it as a question. i have no idea. but i wondered if the biggest thing behind the reports of abuse is that those acts are considered abusive and traumatic in our culture. i don’t know.

  >Perhaps even if an ancient woman recovered memories of her incestuous CSA, it wouldn’t get reported any better than if it had been discovered while it was going on.

  yeah.

  >It seems to be the case that incestuous CSA is the most common recovered-memory accusation.

  yep.

  >Perhaps the ancient silence about early-childhood incest would rule out the most common modern type of recovered memory from being historically reported, even if it occurred.

  yep. and there is also hackings point that it might not have been experienced as traumatic (or if it was then people might just rubbish it)

  >I think that is a point worth making, but reports of other instances of recovered memory could still be expected.

  mebee… or mebee not…

  >That’s an interesting idea! I like it. But people back then assumed that gods (and God) gave them authentic visions, so it seems less likely to me that they would dismiss much as “fantasy”. It was a credulous era.

  but the visions are about future events or past events of monumental significance… not about visions of what happened to them as a child… (interesting to note that the visionaries… might have history of trauma / epilepsy…)

  >>maybe they just didn’t want to talk about it (i mean why go through the pain unless there is a theory that going through the pain helps the pain long term?)

  >That, too, is an interesting point. I wonder if there was any assumption of “talking through it” in the Victorian literature where recovered memory does occur?

  that is part of the ‘recovered memory’ idea!!!! recovered memories… are part of the carthartic method. to remember previously forgotten (repressed? / forgotten? /) traumatic experiences and to reexperience the emotions and hey presto you are cured! the idea is you need to recover memories of trauma… and you need to talk through / experience again those memories / feelings associated with the trauma… and then you are cured.

  that seems to be the very notion these people are investigating… whether people ‘remember’ trauma because they are told by enthusiastic therapists that OF COURSE there is something traumatic and OF COURSE these ideas / dreams / represent veridical experiences in their past (and hence are recovered memroies) and moreover that you HAVE to do this in order to get better.

  and hey presto people start ‘recovering memroies’ left right and centre. i have no problem with the idea that repressed memroies are more prevalant after having been encouraged along by overenthusiastic therapists / clients.

  i just think that it would be very strange indeed if there hadn’t been the odd case occuring prior…

  >>i would say absence of therapists and absence of belief in the utility of remembering could come into play quite significantly.

  >I think the McLean guys would agree. They would just suggest that the “belief in the utility of remembering” may *cause* the memories, not simply make them seem more important.

  yeah. i tell the story a little like this…
  a therapist suggests a client will never be free of her pains unless she reveals her secrets (yup freud used to put it fairly much like this)
  and so the client wants to get better of course… doesn’t want to be resistent… so they get to trying to remember… and because they are thinking on it a great deal…
  they start getting mental pictures / dreams about it etc.
  and then (because of the theory) therapist and client both come to believe the mental pictures / dreams are MEMORIES that are VERIDICAL (ie faithful to events) and hey presto the repressed memory is born!

  and then the interesting thing is that freud realised after a while that what people were ‘remembering’ couldn’t possibly be true… so he decided people were imagining things after all.

  but he failed to distinguish between people who fairly much never forgot (just didn’t want to talk about it for a while then volounteered the info off their own bat)
  and the people who he had ‘coaxed along’. and thus he failed to distinguish and reach the more moderate conclusion that SOME reports are fairly much accurate (as accurate as any memory can be) and that OTHER reports are not (and he failed to see how his LEADING THE CLIENT ALONG contributed to that).

  but now things are so much more complicated because repressed memories have become part of pop culture. you can get pop culture books that ask if you have the following non descript symptoms… and they tell you that on the basis of those non descript symptoms you are probably the victim of sexual abuse but you have repressed all knowledge of it. very irresponsible. but people get to thinking on it and hey presto a ‘repressed memory’ is born. so people do it to themselves these days too, they don’t need a therapist to do it… and nowdays the process tends to be more subtle (especially amongst health professionals as opposed to well intentioned peoples with minimal training).

  but it is a tricky one… a healthy amount of scepticism is probably wise.

  but i think these maclean people are trying to dig for the deeper (stronger) point they seem to be trying to get the conclusion that NO REPRESSED MEMORIES ARE VERIDICAL and that the whole shebang is a therapist invention.

  so my thing is…

  if someone denys abuse (’cause they are too ashamed to admit to it lets say)

  if they persistently deny it for a few years

  (which seems to count as forgetting in the way they define forgetting)

  then they admit to it…

  that might just count as a ‘repressed memory’

  i don’t know that we can distinguish…

  and i would say that this type of memory… is likely to be veridical as any memory can be.

  >>how do they measure ‘inability to access the memory’?
  >>that is a very real problem…

  >It doesn’t seem like a problem for this contest. It really sounds like any self-report by someone who claims to have recovered a traumatic memory they previously didn’t know about would suffice.

  do you have to say ‘i forgot then i remembered’
  or can it go like this:

  have you been abused ‘no’

  have you been abused ‘no’

  have you been abused ‘yes’

  why doesn’t that count (read their def. again. or maybe i’m missing something)

  and so now my point is that who goes around asking ‘have you been abused’ all the time untill the event of therapists? i mean… must be rare for the question to even come up… an dnot until therapists did people persist with the question (to get a different answer next time around)

  >They accept, for example, the ones in Victorian literature.

  but that is so theory laden… the point is what form did the phenomenon take (if there is a comperable phenomenon BEFORE the theory)

  and my point is that…

  its form would of course be different.

  i dunno. maybe i agree with these maclean people…

  i guess my main concern is that…

  IMO we need a middle way between post traumatic models of disorders (where trauma is a cause by definition and hey presto repressed memories are present) and the false memory foundation where they claim that ALL recovered memories are false.

  if ‘no no no yes’ in response to the question counts as a recovered memory (by the false memory foundation) then i don’t buy that… i don’t.

  politics…

  sigh.

  >Always nice to chat with you, _k.

  thanks.

  yo utoo

• Posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 19:58:10In reply to $1000 pre-1800 repressed memory prize, posted by pseudoname on April 5, 2006, at 13:36:06i guess i think…

  people would forget.

  but not remember until the event of therapy most probably.

  but that doesn’t mean recovered memories are false… it could mean that therapists help people remember whereas they couldn’t remember off their own bat (hence therapy is jolly helpful really)- especially if remembering the trauma and working through it is in fact what people need to get better (as the theory maintains)

• Posted by harrisonpope on April 20, 2006, at 13:08:40In reply to historic CSA *trigger* » special_k, posted by pseudoname on April 7, 2006, at 14:11:01Hello-

  In response to some of your comments in the thread:

  Natural human psychological phenomena, such as delusions, hallucinations, depression, anxiety, and dementia, have been portrayed in countless written works throughout the ages. Therefore, if “dissociative amnesia” were also a natural psychological phenomenon, then it also should appear in written works throughout history.
  Is it plausible that dissociative amnesia has always existed, but for some reason was never explicitly portrayed in written works prior to 1800? This is NOT plausible. The mental experiences of human beings are the very stuff of literature; written works throughout history have consistently depicted mental phenomena of every variety. Shakespeare alone, or Greek tragedy alone, or the Bible alone, provides an encyclopedic enumeration of human psychological states. Similarly, nonfictional works, such as medical and philosophical texts throughout the ages, catalog human mental phenomena in detail. Why would dissociative amnesia not be included? Indeed, if dissociative amnesia can afflict as many as 30% of trauma victims, as some reviews have suggested, and if we consider that hundreds of millions of people have lived their lives in literate societies throughout the centuries prior to 1800, then millions of cases would presumably have occurred throughout history. That no one, anywhere, would have noticed a case, and described that case in a nonfictional work or a fictional character, over the course of 20 or 30 centuries, strains credibility.

  A corollary to the above hypothesis, also deserving consideration, asserts that dissociative amnesia is indeed suggested in various writings prior to 1800, but that our ancestors might have visualized, interpreted, and described psychological phenomena differently from ourselves. For example, people in earlier centuries might have witnessed dissociative amnesia, but portrayed it as demonic possession or some other supernatural event, or described it in language entirely different from what we would use today. Certainly this may be true – but DISSOCIATIVE AMNESIA IS A VERY GRAPHIC AND STRIKING PHENOMENON; IF AN OTHERWISE HEALTHY INDIVIDUAL SPONTANEOUSLY DEVELOPS COMPLETE AMNESIA FOR A SPECIFIC, SEEMINGLY UNFORGETTABLE, TRAUMATIC EVENT, THEN A DESCRIPTION OF SUCH A CASE WOULD SURELY BE RECOGNIZABLE, EVEN THROUGH A DENSE VEIL OF CULTURAL INTERPRETATION.

  Another possible hypothesis is that dissociative amnesia exists, but did not come into existence until after 1800. By analogy, AIDS, and the theory of relativity, did not exist two centuries ago. But these are not valid analogies, because phenomena caused by innate intrapsychic processes, such as psychosis, depression, anxiety, or dementia, occur in all cultures across history. Dissociative amnesia falls in this latter category; in other words, if the brain were inherently capable of spontaneously developing amnesia for a traumatic event, then the brain of an individual in classical Greece, or 18th-century England, or Tang Dynasty China, would possess the same capability as the brain of a modern individual, and therefore dissociative amnesia would have found its way into the written word centuries earlier.

  If you feel that you can rebut any of my arguments above, please do not hesitate to reply. Thank you all for your interest.

  Harrison G. Pope, Jr., M.D.

• Posted by pseudoname on April 20, 2006, at 14:00:29In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger*, posted by harrisonpope on April 20, 2006, at 13:08:40Dr Pope, thanks for taking an interest in our thread and taking the time to post at length here.

  This is not a rebuttal to your points, but a question about something you didn’t address.

  As I finally understood it, the argument several people were trying to get through to me is that (in my words) the *technology* for recovering allegedly repressed memories did not exist until the development of introspective psychotherapy and hypnosis.

  It is true, as you say, that we would still expect instances of dissociative amnesia to be reported in historic literature, if it is a real process, even if the victim never recovered his own memory of the trauma. But your contest ALSO demands that the historic report indicate that the memory was RECOVERED later (requirement #4).

  If recovery requires techniques developed or popularized since 1800 (by Mesmerists or Freud or whatever), then RECOVERY would not be expected in the old literature, even if reports of REPRESSION still would be.

  If you doubt that even repression alone was ever historically reported, why do you have that extra requirement for RECOVERY of the memory? And since you do, I wonder how you reply to those who say that the technology for recovery was not available before the 1800s.

  Thanks again.

• Posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 1:11:20In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger*, posted by harrisonpope on April 20, 2006, at 13:08:40>Natural human psychological phenomena, such as delusions, hallucinations, depression, anxiety, and dementia, have been portrayed in countless written works throughout the ages. Therefore, if “dissociative amnesia” were also a natural psychological phenomenon, then it also should appear in written works throughout history.

  >Is it plausible that dissociative amnesia has always existed, but for some reason was never explicitly portrayed in written works prior to 1800? This is NOT plausible.

  ‘The historian of psychiatry Edward Shorter (1997)… Agrees with the more constructionist-minded historians that schizophrenia was virtually unknown before the late 18th century…’.

  Murphy, Dominic (2001) Hacking’s Reconciliation: Putting the Biological and Sociological Together in the Explanation of Mental Illness.

  >If you feel that you can rebut any of my arguments above, please do not hesitate to reply.

  We kinda did if you bothered to read the thread…

  I haven’t checked out the schizophrenia claim. It would seem to me, however, that if schizophrenia is similarly not reported prior to the 1800’s that you would have shown amnesia to be… Similar to schizophrenia.

  Well done

• Posted by Jost on August 20, 2006, at 12:22:05In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger* » harrisonpope, posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 1:11:20The term “schizophrenia” isn’t in the literature because it was invented in the 19th c. This doesn’t mean that clusters of symptoms, or behaviors, later categorized as schizophrenia weren’t mentioned.

  These things may have been conceptualized differently, and one can argue about whether better or worse, but it’s harder to argue that what we would call “madness” did not exist.

  Even Foucault would have acknowledged that various manifestations later called madness existed–

  Jost

• Posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 20:44:01In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger* » Estella, posted by Jost on August 20, 2006, at 12:22:05>The term “schizophrenia” isn’t in the literature because it was invented in the 19th c. This doesn’t mean that clusters of symptoms, or behaviors, later categorized as schizophrenia weren’t mentioned.

  Yeah, I hear what you are saying, but it is also controversial that the clusters of symptoms (that were later named ’schizophrenia’) were reported prior to the 1800’s. There have been some reports… But I’m not sure that they are completely uncontroversial.

  For example:

  http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/ abstract/106561942/ABSTRACT? CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0#search=%22 schizophrenia%20prior%201800%22

  >it’s harder to argue that what we would call “madness” did not exist.

  though some have.

  apparantly there are indeed reports of depression, mania, delusions, hallucinations prior to the 1800’s. A lot of people who would be considered ‘mad’ were they to live in western culture aren’t considered ‘mad’ in their own. though psychiatry is spreading around the globe, of course.

  All I’m getting at is that IF that is right and there isn’t an uncontroversial case of schizophrenia (though it doesn’t have to be called that) prior to the 1800’s THEN I’m wondering how Harrison Pope would respond to that. Seems he has two choices:

  1) He can appropriate his arguments for repressed memory and say that failure to find a case means the disorder never existed. Schizophrenia must be a clinician’s invention by his lights.

  (Though of course that doesn’t follow. One idea is that schizophrenia hasn’t been reported prior to 1800 because it is the result of some virus or pathogen that became prevalent during the industrial revolution. Maybe there is a similar explanation for recovered memories?)

  2) Failure to find a case doesn’t mean that the symptom / disorder is bollicks. I mean… Money is a fairly recent invention in the history of the world… It is universal now, but needed a niche in order to become prevalent.

  Just because something is a social construct doesn’t mean it isn’t real or legitimate.

  Failure to find a case doesn’t entail that there weren’t any. With respect to providing good support… One could make a comperable case for schizophrenia.

  I don’t think the authors want to do this…

  Do they?

• Posted by Jost on August 20, 2006, at 20:55:44In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger*, posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 20:44:01I’ll read the harrisonpope statement.prize offer later, but from a glance, it seems their problem is with the “repressed memory” people, which is quite separate from the issue of madness or schizophrenia.

  I’m not that knowledgeable about the history of mental illness, although I’ve looked at a few things, like Edward Shorter. I’d have to do a little research to say more. I know very little about the repressed memory debate of the last 15-20 years, except that it seems to be related to cases of mass hysteria, and fairly high suggestibility.

  Wonder about he Salem witch trials, although the records for exactly what was going on there are a bit confusing, from what I know.

  But I’m not inclined to try to argue for repressed memory, because while there are undoubtedly gaps in memory, I’m not sure I believe that trauma can cause whole sections of memory to be lost, except in very rare cases. There might be rare cases. Whether they surfaced before 1800? I suspect if you looked through enough sources you could find something.

  Whether you could find it easily, or how you’d make the argument for its being an instance, I don’t know.

  Jost

• Posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 22:36:25In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger* » Estella, posted by Jost on August 20, 2006, at 20:55:44>I’ll read the harrisonpope statement.prize offer later, but from a glance, it seems their problem is with the “repressed memory” people, which is quite separate from the issue of madness or schizophrenia.

  Right. But their argument seems to go a little like this: Can’t find a care therefore phenomena is not a ‘natural human phenomnea’ therfore phenomena is bogus. All I’m saying is that some people seem to think that it is hard to find an uncontroversial case of schizophrenic symptoms prior to 1800 hence according to their argument…

  The notion is to show that their argument doesn’t work by analogy…

  Or they could of course conclude that their argument is fine and hence whatever conclusions they want to draw about the social construction of repressed memories would also (probably) apply to the social construction of schizophrenia.

• Posted by Racer on August 21, 2006, at 9:50:28In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger*, posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 22:36:25>>All I’m saying is that some people seem to think that it is hard to find an uncontroversial case of schizophrenic symptoms prior to 1800 hence according to their argument…

  >

  >

  >

  >Or they could of course conclude that their argument is fine and hence whatever conclusions they want to draw about the social construction of repressed memories would also (probably) apply to the social construction of schizophrenia.

  >

  >

  >

  >

  This actually came up in my cultural anthro class lo those many years ago. (As in, when the earth’s crust was still cooling — or twenty-mumble years back.) My Anthro prof — whom I really respected and liked, and who had done a LOT of field work in South American Indian village societies — brought up the ’shaman’ tradition, and described many attributes of the typical shaman. (I’m just using that word since it’s pretty recognizeable. I’m talking about the village spiritual leader, the mystical visionary, however you’d describe him. Oh, yeah, sometimes female, more usually male.) He gave most of his lecture, with all of us scribbling like mad, before finally asking us, “And does this sound familiar to any of you?” No one had an answer. Lots of blank faces turned towards him.

  He said, “These cultures had a job for the mentally ill,” and went on to describe what very well may have been schizophrenia, but couched in more positive terms. The delusions as the gods speaking through the shaman, but more importantly — someone who probably wouldn’t be able to care for him/herself, someone who probably wouldn’t be able to be a productive member of the society in the way a mentally healthy person would, someone who might not have survived in the “civilized” world through most of history, that person had a position of prestige in the society which included having other people provide food, shelter, and the other needs of survival.

  So it’s entirely possible that schizophrenics have existed for millenium, but be difficult to detect, because the symptomology was described in positive terms.

  Regardless — schizophrenia and repressed/recovered memories are different phenomena, and this thread started out as being about the latter, not the former. So, going back to the latter…

  I, personally, am not a disbeliever in repressed memory, although I do believe that where it exists it’s quite rare. I don’t much believe, though, in recovered memory. If repressed memory exists, it’s surely possible that some people recover those memories. But the sorts of cases of recovered memory that I’ve read about lack any sort of credible evidence. There’s too much evidence, to my mind, of manipulation on the part of therapists ‘treating’ those individuals. (Manipulation in the neutral sense, of molding the reports, probably unconsciously or inadvertantly.)

  The book “Satanism in America: How The Devil Got Much More Than His Due” talks about the numbers involved in the one area of satanic ritual abuse of children — the reports show that more children would have to have been killed in this country during the past thirty years than were actually born! Reports like that get my skepticism up. (Even if I can’t spell it. “Scepticism?”)

  OK, I’m done now. I couldn’t sleep last night, know I’m not making much in the way of sense…

  We’re all free to believe what we believe. I’m only sharing what I believe, and a little about why. This is in no way a criticism of anyone with opposing beliefs.

  Peace, love, and recycle, Everyone!

• Posted by Estella on August 22, 2006, at 22:39:48In reply to Re: historic CSA *trigger*, posted by Racer on August 21, 2006, at 9:50:28Hey. Yeah I’d heard about shamen (and witches and so forth) as people who were ‘mad’ before the concept of ‘madness’ became medicalised. Some people think that that is how mental illness expressed itself, others think that mental illness has nothing to do with it. I’m not sure what I think, I haven’t read around the issue very much. Truth probably lies somewhere in the middle etc.

  I guess one thing it is important to bear in mind is that while to many people schizophrenia = madness it isn’t that simple. Schizophrenia is a particular type of ‘madness’ (though i’m not particularly fond of the term madness). One could hold that there was madness before the 1800’s while still maintaining that schizophrenia didn’t exist before the 1800’s. Apparantly depression and bi-polar have a long history of documentation…

  What the anthro guy was saying is… Very controversial. I mean, it is a major theory, yes. Like maintaining that witches were hysterics or epileptics. But there are other major theories too.

  >He said, “These cultures had a job for the mentally ill,”… that person had a position of prestige in the society which included having other people provide food, shelter, and the other needs of survival.

  Then it can’t be schizophrenia because it doesn’t even meet DSM criteria for a mental illness. Remember the blurb in the DSM about how in order to have mental illness one must be socially etc impaired. These people don’t seem impared in their functioning so much as superior.

  One could view it as a pre-cursor to schizophrenia.

“$1000 reward to anyone who can produce a published case of ‘repressed memory’ (in fiction or non-fiction) prior to 1800.

Our research suggests that the concept of ‘repressed memory’ or ‘dissociative amnesia’ might be simply a romantic notion dating from the 1800s, rather than a scientifically valid phenomenon.

To test this hypothesis, we are offering a reward of $1000 to the first person who can find a description of “repressed memory” in any written work, either nonfiction or fiction…”

More details on how to collect the cash at:

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com

More on the $1000 challenge.

On Google Answers, there are quite a few comments about whether or not repressed memories existed in ancient literature:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=443814

• Evidently you’ve been at this for a while.posted by notmtwain at 10:19 PM PST on March 1
• wait, is mulligan harrison pope? or is he just linking something he found?posted by shmegegge at 10:40 PM PST on March 1
• Seems like a question for AskMe moreso than the blue.posted by edgeways at 10:45 PM PST on March 1
• I have a repressed memory of this being an askMeFi post…if only I had some 18th century documentation…posted by Ohdemah at 10:47 PM PST on March 1
• Samuel Richardson’s Pamela, at or about p. 391 in the Penguin edition.posted by orthogonality at 11:32 PM PST on March 1
• So wait, things don’t exist unless there’s a literature reference before 1800?posted by tkolar at 12:13 AM PST on March 2
• Renaissance plays often draw much of their psychological interest from this, no? One of the better known examples: Lady Macbeth’s bout of insanity/total breakdown in the light of having assisted with her hubby’s regicide. In a broader vein, we might think of the Prospero’s retelling/reconfiguring of historical narrative vis-a-vis Caliban and the island’s history - but this is more a sociological repression of memory, rather than a psychological one.posted by domch at 12:55 AM PST on March 2
• apologies about the above comment! I re-read the criteria for repressed memory and Lady Macbeth doesn’t fit!posted by domch at 1:02 AM PST on March 2
• Well, I’m not that old, but I can assure you that ‘repressed memory’ is a real phenomenon. I won’t say I ’suffered’ from it, as it is easy to see this was a good thing. When the memories returned, it was truly a bizarre experience, and rather frightening.Consider growing up in your teen years with a candy-coated memory of your early years. A big part of thought and experience forgotten. Then at age 25, along comes a cue that opens a flood of memory long buried. Suffice it to say it was not a memory of some horror. But memory is associative, and there were unpleasant things remembered with the good.posted by Goofyy at 1:58 AM PST on March 2
• Um, how would finding a single example, or even several, prove that repressed memory isn’t simply a romantic notion invented sometime before 1800?posted by xanthippe at 4:14 AM PST on March 2
• This is textual idiocy, if not masturbation.These “researchers” commit logical fallacies of confusing cause and effect, and post hoc ergo propter hoc by stating that if a literary textual example of the phenomenon can be found before 1800 then it is the actual *cause* of the phenomenon. This shows no understanding of how discourses or bodies of knowledge are originated more generally, how scientific bodies of knowledge are generated specifically, or the history of the development of “repressed memory” research. It is a real academic shame.posted by mrmojoflying at 5:46 AM PST on March 2
• In other news, unless someone can find pre-1900s documentation of relativistic effects, relativity is a romantic notion invented in the 1900s.posted by qvantamon at 6:16 AM PST on March 2
• Um, Plato. See the Meno.Can I have my $1000 please?!Sheesh, stupid.

  posted by zpousman at 6:43 AM PST on March 2

• zpousman wins hard.posted by nebulawindphone at 7:04 AM PST on March 2
• Why are people dropping references in the thread, rather then submitting their stuff to these guys?Still, I doubt you could find references to psychological “stress” before the 1800s either, because all of modern psychology developed at that time period, making psychological part of popular knowledge.posted by delmoi at 7:24 AM PST on March 2

  Buddha sat down under the Bodhi tree, meditated, and remembered that he was the Buddha, despite years of wandering in the wilderness of Samsara — which is actually Nirvana.

  Ka-ching!

  posted by digaman at 8:23 AM PST on March 2

• Didn’t they just burn you as a witch if you experienced something like that back then?posted by HTuttle at 9:33 AM PST on March 2
• mrmojoflying has it. This is pretty similar to that guy offering a million bucks for “conclusive proof of macroevolution.”posted by muddgirl at 10:03 AM PST on March 2
• I hereby offer $1000* to anyone who can find written reference prior to 1800, fiction or non-fiction, that I cheated on my wife.See, honey, I told you it was your imagination.*as if

  posted by davejay at 10:08 AM PST on March 2

• delmoi asks…Why are people dropping references in the thread, rather then submitting their stuff to these guys?Because they’re far more likely to get a response here then they ever will be to see $1000 from the idiots who offered this “bounty”?

  posted by tkolar at 12:30 PM PST on March 2

• Repressed memory. Another fun theory from Syracuse. Right up there with Facilitated Communication for people with Autistic Disorder.posted by jsteward at 5:55 PM PST on March 2

• tchiotnenetteIndiscutable DiscuteurIndiscutable Discuteur

  Inscrit le: 25 Fév 2006

  Messages: 1111

  Localisation: quelque part

  MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 17, 2006 2:09 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Voui et encore ???

  _________________

  on a toujours besoin d’un plus petit que soi….

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

  Invité

  MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 17, 2006 8:28 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Dans les écrits datant d’avant Eistein, personne ne faisait état de la relativité, cela ne prouve pas qu’elle n’existait pas. Cela prouve simplement qu’on ignorait son existence.

  Votre démarche ne me semble pas scientifiquement valide.

  Revenir en haut

• harrisonpopeNouveau DiscuteurNouveau Discuteur

  Inscrit le: 17 Avr 2006

  Messages: 2
  MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 17, 2006 11:02 pm Sujet du message: Reponse a Cleopatre Répondre en citant

  Chere Cleopatre,

  Est-ce-que vous lisez l’anglais? La reponse a votre poste ci-dessus suit ici, mais je n’ai pas eu assez de temps pour le traduire en francais:

  You suggest that dissociative amnesia (refoulement) might have always existed, but for some reason was never explicitly portrayed in written works prior to 1800. This hypothesis seems implausible, because the mental experiences of human beings are the very stuff of literature; written works throughout history have consistently depicted mental phenomena of every variety. Shakespeare alone, or Greek tragedy alone, or the Bible alone, provides an encyclopedic enumeration of human psychological states. Similarly, nonfictional works, such as medical and philosophical texts throughout the ages, catalog human mental phenomena in detail. Why would dissociative amnesia not be included? Indeed, if dissociative amnesia can afflict as many as 30% of trauma victims, as some reviews have suggested, and if we consider that hundreds of millions of people have lived their lives in literate societies throughout the centuries prior to 1800, then millions of cases would presumably have occurred throughout history. That no one, anywhere, would have noticed a case, and described that case in a nonfictional work or a fictional character, over the course of 20 or 30 centuries, strains credibility.

  A corollary to your argument, also deserving consideration, asserts that dissociative amnesia is indeed suggested in various writings prior to 1800, but that our ancestors might have visualized, interpreted, and described psychological phenomena differently from ourselves. For example, people in earlier centuries might have witnessed dissociative amnesia, but portrayed it as demonic possession or some other supernatural event, or described it in language entirely different from what we would use today. Certainly this may be true – but dissociative amnesia is a very graphic and striking phenomenon; if an otherwise healthy individual spontaneously develops complete amnesia for a specific, seemingly unforgettable, traumatic event, then a description of such a case would surely be recognizable, even through a dense veil of cultural interpretation. Therefore, if dissociative amnesia were a genuine natural phenomenon, one would find not just religious or supernatural references that were merely suggestive of it, or accounts that arguably showed some similarities to it; one would also find at least some mention of straightforward, simple, clear-cut cases of individuals with amnesia for a specific traumatic event.

  [Harrison G. Pope, Jr., M.D.]

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

  Invité
  MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 18, 2006 12:30 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Non désolée, je suis nulle en anglais. Mais c’est gentils de répondre quand même.

  Revenir en haut

• NickieNouveau DiscuteurNouveau Discuteur

  Inscrit le: 26 Avr 2006

  Messages: 4

  Localisation: paris

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 2:45 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Bonjour,

  je lis depuis plusieurs jours cette annonce insolite sur la recherche de cas d’amnésie dissociative avant 1800. Elle m’intéresse énormément car la notion de mémoire refoulée est le fond de commerce de nombreuses “Crazy Therapies”, dites de la MRT (thérapies de la mémoire recouvrée). Pas très anodin car cette notion de mémoire refoulée ou d’amnésie dissiocative génère le fléau du FMS (faux souvenirs) frappe la France de plein fouet . J’avoue que j’ai beau réfléchir sur les cas d’amnésie dissociative en littérature française avant 1800. Rien. Mais il est possibel d’aller consulter des archives à la grande bibliothèque de F.Miterrand voir ce qu’il en est. Je trouve qu’au contraire, malgré le côté ludique de la prime, la démarche est scientifique est rigoureuse. Un peu détonnante pour la France bastion de la psychanalyse (Freud et ses dissidents) où la théorie du refoulement s’est bein dévelopée, soit correctemnt ou d’une façon déviante.

  Bie cordialement.javascript:emoticon(’Rolling Eyes’)

  _________________

  Nickie

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

• biensaDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 16 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2613

  Localisation: sud Est (var ouest!)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 2:57 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Nickie a écrit:

  Bonjour,

  je lis depuis plusieurs jours cette annonce insolite sur la recherche de cas d’amnésie dissociative avant 1800. Elle m’intéresse énormément car la notion de mémoire refoulée est le fond de commerce de nombreuses “Crazy Therapies”, dites de la MRT (thérapies de la mémoire recouvrée). Pas très anodin car cette notion de mémoire refoulée ou d’amnésie dissiocative génère le fléau du FMS (faux souvenirs) frappe la France de plein fouet . J’avoue que j’ai beau réfléchir sur les cas d’amnésie dissociative en littérature française avant 1800. Rien. Mais il est possibel d’aller consulter des archives à la grande bibliothèque de F.Miterrand voir ce qu’il en est. Je trouve qu’au contraire, malgré le côté ludique de la prime, la démarche est scientifique est rigoureuse. Un peu détonnante pour la France bastion de la psychanalyse (Freud et ses dissidents) où la théorie du refoulement s’est bein dévelopée, soit correctemnt ou d’une façon déviante.

  Bie cordialement.javascript:emoticon(’Rolling Eyes’)

  effectivement j’ai entendu parler de ces fameux souvenirs fabriqués qui permettent à des gens de faire des procès, question de faire du fric facile Exclamation

  c’est assez angoissant Confused

  _________________

  mais qui est mon prochain ??

  biensa[img]

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

• NickieNouveau DiscuteurNouveau Discuteur

  Inscrit le: 26 Avr 2006

  Messages: 4

  Localisation: paris

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 3:04 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Bonjour,

  Oui des faux souvenirs qui permettent de se faire du fric facile pour des thérapeutes qui utilisent des psychotechniques avec des théories pseudo-cientifiques de la mémoire. Regardez ce soir au journal de france 2 le témoignage d’une famille victime de FMS (False Memory Syndrome) et dtes moi demain ce que vous en pensez.

  Bien cordialement javascript:emoticon(’Very Happy’)

  _________________

  Nickie

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

• biensaDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 16 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2613

  Localisation: sud Est (var ouest!)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 3:09 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Nickie a écrit:

  Bonjour,

  Oui des faux souvenirs qui permettent de se faire du fric facile pour des thérapeutes qui utilisent des psychotechniques avec des théories pseudo-cientifiques de la mémoire. Regardez ce soir au journal de france 2 le témoignage d’une famille victime de FMS (False Memory Syndrome) et dtes moi demain ce que vous en pensez.

  Bien cordialement javascript:emoticon(’Very Happy’)

  oui je crois que je vais regarder c’est à quelle heure stp Question

  Evil or Very Mad je sens que ça va me mettre de bonne humeur cette histoire et ça va pas arranger ma paranoia naissante, mais bon sachons vivre dangereusement Wink

  _________________

  mais qui est mon prochain ??

  biensa[img]

  Dernière édition par biensa le Mer Avr 26, 2006 3:16 pm; édité 1 fois

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

• NickieNouveau DiscuteurNouveau Discuteur

  Inscrit le: 26 Avr 2006

  Messages: 4

  Localisation: paris

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 3:14 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Mais non mais non pas de parano! Faut faire gaffe à certains psys pas compétents , c’est tout.

  Journal de France 2 du 20h: sujet: rapport de la MIVILUDES et derrière témoignage de FMS.

  Bie cordjavascript:emoticon(’Rolling Eyes’)

  _________________

  Nickie

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

• MajoDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 02 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2989

  Localisation: Maastricht (Pays Bas)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 4:56 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Evil or Very Mad

  Citation:

  Bonjour,

  Oui des faux souvenirs qui permettent de se faire du fric facile pour des thérapeutes qui utilisent des psychotechniques avec des théories pseudo-cientifiques de la mémoire

  Mais c’est horrible ce truc la. Rolling Eyes

  _________________

  Notre difference est notre signature.

  Majo

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé Visiter le site web du posteur Adresse AIM Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger

• NickieNouveau DiscuteurNouveau Discuteur

  Inscrit le: 26 Avr 2006

  Messages: 4

  Localisation: paris

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 5:06 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Mais oui c’est horrible parce que l’on peut vous persuader que votre mal-être est du à un trauma dont vous en souvenez pas (la mémoire refoulée)et qui s’est dans votre enfance, à l’age de 3 ans, comme d’avoir été agresé sexuellement par l’un de vos proches. Certaines thérapies qui prétendent vous faire remonter des souvenirs oubliés peuvent être dangeureuses car elles font croire que les images qui arrrivent à la conscience ne sont pas des fantasmes mais de réels ouvenirs. Ors il a été démontré scientifiquemnt des distorsions de la mémoire. Les conditions du challenge du Dr Pope correspondent aux dernières données scientifqiues sur la mémoire. Bien cord

  _________________

  Nickie

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

  Invité
  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 5:26 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Ben désolée, je ne m’y connais pas suffisemment en psychologie pour m’exprimer sur le fond.

  Mais sur la forme, la méthode ne m’apparait toujours pas valide: la seule chose qui pourra être prouvée, c’est qu’il n’était pas question dans la littérature d’amnésir dissociative avant une date x

  La seule façon de contestée une théorie est de l’attaquer dans ses fondements et de montrer qu’elle n’est pas valide scientifiquement, enfin je crois Sad

  Revenir en haut

• MajoDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 02 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2989

  Localisation: Maastricht (Pays Bas)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 5:33 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Very Happy Mais alors si je suis dingue Rolling Eyes Ce n’est pas de ma faute.

  _________________

  Notre difference est notre signature.

  Majo

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé Visiter le site web du posteur Adresse AIM Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger

• biensaDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 16 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2613

  Localisation: sud Est (var ouest!)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 6:43 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Majo a écrit:

  Very Happy Mais alors si je suis dingue Rolling Eyes Ce n’est pas de ma faute.

  et vlan encore une illusion qui tombe majo , tu te croyais maitre de ta folie

  et béééééééééé nan Exclamation t’es un traumatisé d’avant que tu te souviennes et vive la liberté mdrmdr mdrmdr

  _________________

  mais qui est mon prochain ??

  biensa[img]

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

• MajoDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 02 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2989

  Localisation: Maastricht (Pays Bas)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 7:14 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Very Happy Je viens avec Luther de parler via skype a alpha, ca en plus ,je suis effondré de rire sur le clavier. mdr2 mdr2 mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr enaccord1: enaccord1: enaccord1: enaccord1:

  _________________

  Notre difference est notre signature.

  Majo

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé Visiter le site web du posteur Adresse AIM Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger

• biensaDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 16 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2613

  Localisation: sud Est (var ouest!)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 7:52 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Majo a écrit:

  Very Happy Je viens avec Luther de parler via skype a alpha, ca en plus ,je suis effondré de rire sur le clavier. mdr2 mdr2 mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr mdrmdr enaccord1: enaccord1: enaccord1: enaccord1:

  ha bé quelle équipe produit ce forum, je vous dis pas

  à garder en mémoire, ça compensera les traumatismes de la petite enfance Wink

  _________________

  mais qui est mon prochain ??

  biensa[img]

  Revenir en haut

  Voir le profil de l’utilisateur Envoyer un message privé

• MajoDieu De La DiscussionDieu De La Discussion

  Inscrit le: 02 Fév 2006

  Messages: 2989

  Localisation: Maastricht (Pays Bas)

  MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 26, 2006 7:55 pm Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

  Oui c’est une super therapie , je peut congedier mon psy.

  _________________

  Notre difference est notre signature.

  Majo

• Hi Harrison, and welcome to SFN!Y’know, that’s an interesting question; one that I never gave any thought. 1700s literture isn’t a topic I’m really familiar with.Have you tried looking through the surviving, military records of the era?

  “What luck for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

  Harry_Houdini The myth that a cousin of Houdini married Three Stooges member Moe Howard is false.

  “Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player

  That struts and frets his hour upon the stage

  And then is heard no more: it is a tale

  Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

  Signifying nothing.” ~~ McBeth, Act V, Scene V

  Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism.

  Go to Top of Page

• Dr. MabuseSeptic FiendSweden

  4602 Posts

  Posted - 04/18/2006 : 14:01:04 [Permalink] Show Profile Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message

  quote:Originally posted by filthy

  Have you tried looking through the surviving, military records of the era?

  Damn, Filthy!

  You’re potentially destroying an excellent opportunity to get some dough to upgrade your computer for better SFN-viewing. Imagine a 21″ CRT, or a 19-20″ LCD…

  Dr. Mabuse - “When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape…”

  My girlfriend playing with her camera –> Pettersson’s Photo Gallery

  Go to Top of Page

• harrisonpopeNew Member2 Posts

  Posted - 04/19/2006 : 06:16:29 [Permalink] Show Profile Visit harrisonpope’s Homepage Send harrisonpope a Private Message

  The moderators took my post down because I posted the same query on other sites, but for all those interested in what we’re looking for, the text of our challenge can be found here… http://www.biopsychlab.com/challenge.html

  Go to Top of Page

• filthySFN Die HardUSA

  7335 Posts

  Posted - 04/19/2006 : 07:17:29 [Permalink] Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message

  quote:Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

  quote:Originally posted by filthy

  Have you tried looking through the surviving, military records of the era?

  Damn, Filthy!

  You’re potentially destroying an excellent opportunity to get some dough to upgrade your computer for better SFN-viewing. Imagine a 21″ CRT, or a 19-20″ LCD…

  Yeh I know. Cuttin’ my own throat again.

  But as well as military records, it might be a good idea to look at ship’s logs.

  Another place to look would be the East India Company’s records.

  I’d just squander it….

  “What luck for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

  Harry_Houdini The myth that a cousin of Houdini married Three Stooges member Moe Howard is false.

  “Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player

  That struts and frets his hour upon the stage

  And then is heard no more: it is a tale

  Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

  Signifying nothing.” ~~ McBeth, Act V, Scene V

  Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism.

  Go to Top of Page

• Dr. MabuseSeptic FiendSweden

  4602 Posts

  Posted - 04/19/2006 : 10:41:48 [Permalink] Show Profile Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message

  quote:Originally posted by harrisonpope

  The moderators took my post down because I posted the same query on other sites, but for all those interested in what we’re looking for, the text of our challenge can be found here… http://www.biopsychlab.com/challenge.html

  Maybe if you had PMed the forum’s moderator and asked first, he/they might have granted you an exemption for spamming.

  It’s not like the post resembled anything the banned member Kilik would have posted, and it concerned a subject that have engaged the SFN for a while.

  Dr. Mabuse - “When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape…”

  My girlfriend playing with her camera –> Pettersson’s Photo Gallery

  Go to Top of Page

• Dave W.Info JunkieUSA

  9281 Posts

  Posted - 04/19/2006 : 11:50:50 [Permalink] Show Profile Visit Dave W.’s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message

  Had Dr. Pope written something like his second post as the OP, there wouldn’t have been an issue at all. I even provided links to three other posts he has made, to make sure everyone could still get to the original text. It’s a subject that can still engage the members of the SFN.

  More sites talking about the challenge:

  * Butterflies and Wheels

  * Cliopatria

  * Clayton Cramer’s Blog

  * Positive Liberty

  * Psycho-Babble Psychology

  * Recovered Memory Therapy in Australia

  - Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)

  Evidently, I rock!

  Why not question something for a change?

  Go to Top of Page

• KilEvil SkepticUSA

  3762 Posts

  Posted - 04/19/2006 : 12:09:03 [Permalink] Show Profile Visit Kil’s Homepage Send Kil an AOL message Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message

  I think it’s an interesting question. Of course, Dr. Pope does have close ties with the FMSF…

  Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

• Dass sich zu diesem Beitrag niemand meldet, ist aus Sicht der Forscher sicherlich ein positives Zeichen. Mir selbst jedenfalls ist kein Text bekannt, der die obigen Kriterien erfüllt.IP: geloggt… denn wer singen und dichten kann, hat den Beruf dazu und soll dichten. — G.W.F. Hegel

  Profil Homepage von Kenon besuchen Nachricht senden Zitat

  Wolff

  Mitglied

  210 Forenbeiträge

  seit dem 19.01.2006

• Antwort - Permalink - Abgeschickt am: 28.04.2006 um 19:21 UhrVielleicht gibt/oder gab es das ja, ist eben nur nicht erhalten.Wenn ich ehrlich bin, habe ich Schwierigkeiten der o.g. Hypothese zu folgen. Es übertrifft einfach mein Vorstellungsermögen, dass man sich einen Gedächtnisverlust einbilden kann, vor allem nicht, wenn man um dieses Phänomen nicht einmal etwas weiß.

  Aber das dürfte mein Problem sein.

  Ab wann ist eigentlich der Schnupfen glaubwürdig überliefert? Oder ist das eine Erfindung der letzten Eiszeit?

  IP: geloggt

  Profil Nachricht senden Zitat

  Kenon

  Mitglied

  3203 Forenbeiträge

  seit dem 02.07.2001

• 3. Antwort - Permalink - Abgeschickt am: 28.04.2006 um 19:38 UhrJa, das ist sicher ein schwieriges Thema. Kindheitserinnerungen, die bei einem Erwachsenen plötzlich wieder und mitunter auch sehr detailliert auftauchen, ohne zuvor in irgendeinem traumatischen Keller versenkt worden zu sein, fallen ja auch nicht in die Kategorie, die hier gesucht wird.

To qualify as a bona fide case, the individual described in the work must:

1) Experience a severe trauma (abuse, sexual assault, a near-death
experience, witnessing the death of a loved one, etc.).

2) Develop amnesia for that trauma for a period of months or years
afterwards (i.e. be clearly unable to remember the traumatic event as
opposed to merely trying not to think about the event, or trying to
keep the event out of one’s mind).

3) Experience amnesia that cannot be accounted for by biological
factors such as a) early childhood amnesia — in which the individual
was under the age of five at the time that trauma occurred, or b)
brain impairment — such as an individual who was knocked unconscious,
or was drunk with alcohol, at the time of the trauma.

4) Recover the lost memory of the event at some later time in the
individual’s life, even though the individual has previously been
unable to access the memory.

For a little more detail, the idea of “repressed memory” or
“dissociative amnesia,” as it is sometimes also known, refers to the
theory that an individual could experience a serious traumatic event
– a trauma so serious that it would normally seem unforgettable –
and then develop amnesia for that event (i.e. be literally unable to
remember the event) for months or years afterwards, only to ultimately
recover the lost memory at some point later in life. For example, in
modern novels or screenplays, an individual may experience childhood
abuse, or an assault, or a rape, and then have amnesia for the event
for years afterwards — almost as if the mind were attempting to
protect the individual against the traumatic memory. Then, the
individual may “recover” the “repressed memory” years later, perhaps
at a moment fraught with considerable emotion.

A literary example that fulfills all of the above criteria is Penn, in
Rudyard Kipling’s novel, Captains Courageous, who develops complete
amnesia or for having lost his entire family in a tragic flood. He
later goes to work as a fisherman on a Grand Banks schooner. On one
occasion, after a tragic collision between an ocean liner and another
schooner at sea, Penn suddenly recovers his lost memory of the flood
and the death of his family, and recounts the story to other members
of the crew.

Note, however, that Captains Courageous appeared in 1896; I am seeking
a comparable example of “repressed memory” in a work prior to 1800.

• Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 10 Feb 2006 10:38 PSTharrisonpope-ga,This is quite an interesting question. I have access to a number of
  full-text databases of 18th century works (of both medicine and
  literature), but no luck so far.

  Problem is, I’m not sure what to search on. The word ‘amnesia’ rarely
  finds use prior to the 1800’s, and there’s certainly no use of
  ‘repressed’ anything in the pre-Freud era.

  Since you’ve clearly made quite a study of this already, perhaps you
  can offer some suggestions. What were the types of descriptive terms
  used in the early 1800’s when writing about what we today call
  (generally) amnesia or (even more particularly) what we now call
  ‘repressed memory’.

  Any input would be a big help.

  pafalafa-ga

• Clarification of Question by harrisonpope-ga on 13 Feb 2006 07:18 PSTpafalafa-ga has e-mailed me to ask about possible search terms to use
  when looking at fulltext databases of works prior to 1800. He or she
  points out that the term “amnesia” rarely appears in these works, and
  that the word “repression” is completely absent, since the term
  apparently did not exist at that time. Therefore, what search terms
  could one use?

  I have faced the same question when looking, for example, at
  concordances to Shakespeare or concordances to the Bible.
  Unfortunately, I know of no good solution, other than the obvious
  method of using words like “forget,” “memory,” and “remember.”
  Clearly, these search terms will generate hundreds or thousands of
  citations, making the search process very laborious. Regrettably,
  however, I don’t know of any narrower terms, used prior to 1800, that
  capture the concept of being literally unable to remember a traumatic
  event. Of course, the apparent absence of such narrower terms is one
  of the factors that leads me to my suspicion that maybe there are no
  cases of “repressed memory” prior to 1800. Sorry not to be able to
  offer any better advice — but keep looking!

• Clarification of Question by harrisonpope-ga on 13 Feb 2006 07:39 PSTamber00-ga poses the question of whether Oedipus Rex might arguably
  qualify as a case of “repressed memory,” in that Oedipus does not
  remember events from his infancy. I have not read Oedipus Rex
  recently, but I gather that the events that Oedipus has forgotten
  occurred before the age of five. If so, they would represent the
  ordinary so-called “infantile amnesia” that we all experience, because
  our brains have simply not developed completely at that age to the
  point that we can lay down very many permanent memories. Of course,
  most of us can a few fragmentary items from age 3 or 4, but it is very
  rare that anyone would remember anything at all prior to their third
  birthday.

  Now, if Oedipus experienced a traumatic event after his fifth
  birthday, and he was selectively unable to remember that traumatic
  event later on (i.e., that event was no longer accessible to his
  conscious mind, even though he could presumably remember other,
  non-traumatic things that happened when he was five), and he then
  recovered the memory as an adult (i.e. became able to remember the
  traumatic event of his own accord, as opposed to simply being told by
  somebody that the event occurred), then in that case I need to go back
  and read Oedipus Rex, because the case might indeed fulfill my
  criteria.

  The same criteria would apply to Euripides’ ‘Heracles,’ the other
  possibility mentioned by amber00-ga.

  So if either of these cases approach is my criteria, please tell me,
  and I’ll go back and read the play immediately. On the other hand, if
  the cases don’t approach my criteria, perhaps you could explain to me
  why they don’t approach my criteria.

  Harrison G. Pope Jr., M.D.

• Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 13 Feb 2006 09:30 PSTDr. Pope,I’ve looked through Oedipus, and I have to agree with your
  intuition…this is not an example of what you’re seeking.

  It could well be that no such example exists in pre-1800 literature.
  However, the best a researcher could do in that case would be to spend
  a good deal of effort searching, and at the end, say “Sorry….nothing
  turned up!”

  I have access to a number of 18th century (and earlier) literature
  sources, and I can make a best-effort search of those, if you’d like.
  Here is an example of another historical question I answered not that
  long ago:

  http://answers.google.com/answers/ threadview?id=587813

  However, at the end of the day, it may well be that, best efforts
  notwithstanding, my answer would have to be “Sorry….nothing turned
  up!”

  That’s always the risk one takes in trying to prove the negative, I’m afraid.

  Would you like me to make such an effort, and let you know what I find
  as an answer to your question?

  Let me know what you think.

  pafalafa-ga

• Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 15 Feb 2006 18:33 PSTThought I’d offer this up as at least the first step in repressing a
  memory, even if its re-emergence is not described:

  http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/ etext96/ftroy10.txt

  The Fall of Troy

  4th century

  Smyrnaeus Quintus

  Answered her Menelaus wise of wit:

  “No more remember past griefs: seal them up

  Hid in thine heart. Let all be locked within

  The dim dark mansion of forgetfulness.

  What profits it to call ill deeds to mind?”

  paf

• Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 16 Feb 2006 14:50 PSTAnother tidbit:I’ve found mention in several 18th century works of a recognized
  medical condition, “amnesia traumatica”.

  However, I haven’t had any success yet in actually tracking down any
  case descriptions, to see if they meet your criteria or not. However
  – if you haven’t already — you may wish to make inquiries of some
  history of medicine experts on this particular condition.

  I’ll let you know if I learn anything more,

  paf

• Clarification of Question by harrisonpope-ga on 22 Feb 2006 09:48 PSTHello everyone,I’m sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I have been out of
  town for a number of days, and have only now returned to my office.

  The examples that all of you provided to me, especially the examples
  in the exhaustive analysis by hardtofindbooks, are fascinating — but
  as you have acknowledged yourselves, none of them is a simple case
  where an ordinary human being experienced a traumatic event, then was
  unable to remember it afterwards.

  However, the examples supplied provide abundant evidence that our
  ancestors were familiar with various forms of forgetfulness, if not
  outright amnesia, even though none of the peers who have been familiar
  with “repressed memory.” There appear to be several categories of
  forgetfulness in the examples that you have supplied to me.

  The first is the common human experience of trying not to think about
  unpleasant things, or to put them out of one’s mind. This is what
  Menelaus counsels in The Fall of Troy, or what Rabbi Nachman advises
  in the examples that you have given. Examples such as these likely
  meet the criterion of a “traumatic event” — since otherwise there
  would presumably be no premium on trying to forget the event — but
  they do not meet the criterion of being unable to remember the event.
  Indeed, probably all of us can recall the experience of valiantly
  attempting to put the memory of some unpleasantness out of our mind,
  only to be haunted by it despite our best efforts. This experience –
  the conscious attempt to forget, or not think about, traumatic or
  unpleasant memories — contrasts with the theory of “repressed
  memory,” where it is postulated that amnesia occurs spontaneously, as
  a result of an unconscious process.

  The second is amnesia occurring as result of some type of biological
  event, such as a head injury or intoxication. For example the
  18th-century term, “amnesia traumatica,” very likely refers to amnesia
  occurring as result of head trauma or some other insult to the central
  nervous system (although I don’t know this for certain). Certainly
  our ancestors were vulnerable to lots of biological traumas –
  including especially head injuries with loss of consciousness, or
  brain diseases affecting memory — so I would think that the
  phenomenon of somebody forgetting a block of time, indeed even a block
  of years of time, would have been familiar to everybody for many
  centuries. To take but one example, a severe case of herpes simplex
  encephalitis can leave an individual with no memory of anything that
  has happened to him or her for the last 20 years, even though that
  individual may retain a perfectly intact memory for something that
  occurred, say, 35 years ago. Individuals who have recovered from this
  illness may be perfectly capable of reciting a series of 10 digits
  that has just been presented to them, yet they may have complete
  amnesia for all events that happened more than a couple of minutes
  earlier. Indeed, I vividly remember such a patient, who was assigned
  to me back in medical school in the 1970s. She could vividly remember
  events from World War II, and could instantly produce the name of,
  say, Franklin Roosevelt’s dog, but had total amnesia for her entire
  life after approximately 1950. Cases such as this have doubtless been
  witnessed by people in every culture and in every century, and thus
  would serve as a foundation for various written descriptions. Such
  cases are instantly distinguishable from “repressed memory,” however,
  because the individual develops amnesia for an entire block of time,
  or for a whole series of events, rather than for a specific traumatic
  event. In “repressed memory,” by contrast, one can remember
  nontraumatic events, while selectively being unable to remember the
  traumatic event.

  Now it is hard to know to what extent earlier writers had witnessed
  biological amnesia (without perhaps knowing its cause) and had then
  use this knowledge as inspiration for various narratives in which
  amnesia plays a role. But this may account for the many narratives in
  which people are described as having amnesia for good things rather
  than traumatic things (such as Sigurd’s amnesia of his love for
  Brynhild, or Mrs. Bettler’s son’s “amnesia” for the fact that he was
  the reincarnated soul of Mr. Geltman, or the curse against Shakuntula
  that his lover will forget him). Alternatively, people may be
  described as suddenly having amnesia for years of time, including both
  good and bad things that happened during those years — like my lady
  who had recovered from herpes simplex encephalitis. Gu Kuang’s
  reincarnated son, along with other reincarnated individuals, might
  best be classified in this category: they have forgotten everything,
  and not just a traumatic event.

  Parenthetically, I would note that my own example from James Fenimore
  Cooper, quoted earlier in this thread by myoarin, doesn’t really
  qualify as a case of “repressed memory” either, because the children
  of Wish-Ton-Wish also forgot whole blocks of time, rather than a
  specific traumatic event. However my example from Captains
  Courageous, cited in my original question, is a “clean” case.

  A third thread that runs through the examples provided is the notion
  that one might have special powers or abilities of which one is
  unaware, or for which one has amnesia. Later, the amnesia might be
  erased and the special powers restored. For example the monkey
  Hanuman has amnesia for his supernatural abilities as a result of a
  curse in one of the citations given above. However, the belief that
  one has special powers or abilities, formerly unrecognized, is
  commonplace in individuals with manic episodes (the manic phase of
  manic-depressive illness, or bipolar disorder) who have grandiose
  delusions. As someone who has treated hundreds of manic patients, I
  have dealt with countless patients who believed that they had acquired
  the ability to speak languages that they had not formally known, or
  believe that they suddenly had acquired other bodies of knowledge that
  they had not previously possessed, or who believed that they were
  Christ reincarnated (at the peak of my psychiatric practice in the
  1980s, in fact, I was visited by three patients who met the latter
  criterion in the course of the same day). Now, manic-depressive
  illness, accompanied by grandiose delusions, has existed since time
  immemorial around the world, and therefore our ancestors could not
  help but have witnessed people who reported that they had suddenly
  recovered vast blocks of formerly inaccessible knowledge and wisdom.
  Such delusional experiences, of course, can also occur under the
  influence of hallucinogenic substances — so that even people without
  psychiatric disorders could experience them. Hallucinogenic plants
  and other substances have been well known and often deliberately
  ingested for millennia, especially in the Americas (peyote, ayahuasca,
  psilocybin mushrooms, etc.), and also in the old world (for example
  Tabernanthe iboga in equatorial West Africa). Hallucinogenic
  substances might also be inadvertently ingested (for example, ergotism
  in medieval Europe). So in a word, our ancestors witnessed no
  shortage of people who “recalled” bodies of knowledge, supernatural
  abilities, and pas